• • Margot
    • I could see you married to John Oliver.
    
    
  • Raighne
    • Yeah, he could be my husband.
    
    
  • Margot
    • Right? Couldn't you see him with John Oliver?
    
    
  • Stephen
    • Uh I guess, like,— how would the dynamic be?
    
    
  • Margot
    • Well, yeah..
    
    
  • Raighne
    • Yeah, I suppose it wouldn't work out.
    
    
  • Margot
    • Ohh ho ho [laughing]
    
    
  • Stephen
    • I feel like he would be very critical of you or something.
    
    
  • Raighne
    • Oh, definitely. yeah. Yeah.
    
    
  • Margot
    • You might be very critical of him.
    
    
  • Raighne
    • That's true, that's true.
    
    
  • Raighne
    • Raighne will be critical of him in his diary.
    
    
  • Margot + Stephen + Raighne
    • [laughter]
    
    
  • Raighne
    • "Dear John.. If that's even your real name.."{pretending to write in a notebook}
    
    
  • Margot
    • Is it? It must be. Your fake name wouldn't be John.
    
    
  • Raighne
    • [laughter]
    
    
  • Margot
    • I brought him up just because he had a — I was watching a clip about lethal injections and how they're like really bad..
    
    
  • Raighne
    • Damn
    
    
  • Stephen
    • In terms of like..
    
    
  • Margot
    • They're not painless at all.
    
    
  • Raighne
    • Horrible, horrible.
    
    
  • Margot
    • I think they give you— there's like three shots usually. And like one of them is um,
    
    
  • Raighne
    • Isn't one of them not even approved by— ?
    
    
  • Margot
    • Yeah, there's some.. there's like some weird thing. I don't know. But um the first thing I think like— and I thought it would be an anesthesia kinda— or something that would like numb — or anesthesia doesn't numb.. or maybe it does. But anyway. I thought it would be a painkiller. But it's actually just a sedative. And um, I guess the effect would be the equivalent of having a drink basically. And the next shot is um
    
    
  • Raighne
    • Pure pain.
    
    
  • Margot
    • Yeah, I think
    
    
  • Raighne
    • jesus
    
    
  • Margot
    • Or well okay, so— the first one makes you like, very slightly drunk feeling and then the next one actually makes it so that you can't actually move your body in any way. Um, and I think the third shot is actually the poison. And the poison itself is extremely painful
    
    
    • Raighne Jesus
    
    
  • Margot
    • People have described it as feeling like there's just fire pumping through your veins.
    
    
  • Stephen Described it.. Have people have experienced it, without it killing them?
  
  
• Margot
  • Um, I don't know, I mean, I think I think most of these are, like, botched in a way. People do end up dying anyway, just because it's like,
  
  
• Raighne
  • so painful.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Raighne
  • jesus
  
  
• Stephen
  • they're botched, like—
  
  
• Margot
  • um, just in terms
  
  
• Stephen
  • like they-- it didn't work?
  
  
• Margot
  • I mean, they succeed in killing the person eventually I think. Um, but I think, they're botched in the sense of like, it took a really long time for the person to die. Instead of like a few minutes-- it takes 45 minutes or something.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Ah, jeez
  
  
• Stephen
  • So they're describing it as it's happening. Or..
  
  
• Margot
  • No, they can't talk. I guess I don't know like who's the person who knows that it feels like fire going through your veins. Like I don't know who that person is. But I guess the consensus or like the medical knowledge says it's very very painful. And then you can't talk and you can't move your body at all
  
  
• Raighne
  • Sounds like hell.
  
  
• Margot
  • So you can't say anything
  
  
• Raighne
  • Jesus..
  
  
• Margot
  • But you're slightly drugged I guess in a way. And I guess like uh, when they were trying to figure this out they had this one guy who was sort of in charge of figuring out the injections or like specifically what anestheia to use. And it just turned out like I don't think he was quite a medical doctor. And it also turned out that he had never done any um, he had never been involved in any research on any sort of anesthetic — ever? I think he had to go to court and uh they said that he brought uh, basically like printouts from uh drugs.com — to show these researchers something . He would reference Wikipedia.
  
  
  • Raighne jesus
  
  
• Margot
  • "I think this is the thing that does the thing we wanted to do." Like it would just be like like if they told one of us to figure out the injections and then,
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah, I know what the internet is!
  
  
• Margot
  • like you just go to wikipedia..
  
  
• Raighne
  • yeah jesus
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah.. it would have been like— just before we filmed, I was watching YouTube videos on how to set up the lighting.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah. Yeah
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah, yeah, jesus [laughing]
  
  
• Stephen
  • yeah, wow like: horror.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah it's kinda, I'm suprised that it's that bad.
  
  
• Stephen
  • I'm interested in, do you know Temple Grandin ? An autistic engineer. She—
  
  
• Margot
  • I know that name, but I don't—
  
  
• Stephen
  • she designed the modern, uhhhh slaughterhouse
  
  
• Margot
  • woah
  
  
• Stephen
  • There's a more gentle word for that but uh, the way it's designed is that it has a spiral enclosure that they release cows into
  
  
• Margot
  • mm hmm
  
  
• Stephen
  • It used to be that like, the whole process of getting the cows into being killed, had them constantly crammed and scared. She identified what scared them, which were like shadows and movement in their periphery vision and stuff. So the walls are now built high around them. And then like the spiral shape-- cows have this tendency to try to go back to where they came from. And the spiral form sorta tricks them into thinking that's what they're doing.
  
  
• Margot
  • mmm. Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Uhhh. And then yeah, at the end they walk through a chute that has a light at the end. They follow the light and a the door drops behind each so that the previous cow doesn't see.. when they go up an incline. and that's ah, yeah.. where they get shot with the airgun
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah. Like the thing that uh, the villain of No Country For Old Men uses?
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Right
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah. I mean, I guess that would be more humane. Uh
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah,
  
  
• Stephen
  • She's said that she had also looked at, like, how they execute human beings and that she knows how to fix it to make it so it isn't painful. But it's just, that she won't be involved with killing humans..
  
  
• Margot
  • Seems totally reasonable.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • She apparently figured this stuff out because she identifies with the way that cows uh perceive the world.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • She says her perceptual mode is similar?
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of sad.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Oh yeah
  
  
• Margot
  • But maybe it's not.. Because ... if you have to kill cows; you should figure out the best way to do it.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Margot
  • For the cows.
  
  
• Stephen
  • I like that like the reason that she visited the slaughterhouse was that she was interested in death.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah
  
  
• Stephen
  • And so that was like the site that she could visit to think about it— it reminds me of the videos you showed us. A little bit. Uh, designing the knife based on the knocking over a picture frame..
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah, where it's like, like, maybe this one idea led you to like, design a slaughterhouse. "I just wanted to understand death and now I—"
  
  
• Stephen
  • She designed a hugging machine. Too.
  
  
• Margot
  • Really?
  
  
• Stephen
  • For herself. Yeah
  
  
• Margot
  • oh,
  
  
• Stephen
  • you probably would recognize her like
  
  
• Margot
  • is she, is she like, not that old, or something? er
  
  
• Stephen
  • Uh I don't think she is that old.
  
  
• Margot
  • Mm
  
  
• Stephen
  • or I think she's probably in her 60's.
  
  
• Margot
  • Because like, when you were talking about the slaughterhouses? When you said Temple Grandin, I imagined someone who was like, contemporary and then when you talked about the slaughterhouses, I suddenly was like: Oh, this must be like, a long time ago.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Mm mm,
  
  
• Margot
  • Like my mind jumped back to like uh, I don't know, like the 50s or something.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah, I'm not sure when they were designed, actually. Now, she's mostly— well, I mean, I think she still does engineering work for like, uh. I don't know, like— But she does lectures.
  
  
• Margot
  • Hmm. I should look her up. She sounds
  
  
• Stephen
  • She's interesting.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • uhh, she says her mind is like Google Images.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Wow
  
  
• Stephen
  • She says, when you uh, if like, you say roof, to her, she doesn't have a general sense of roof as a concept. Instead she visualizes, scrolls through, like every roof she's seen or-- Like a catalog.
  
  
• Margot
  • That makes sense. Is that like, um kind of like what autism is like, in general?
  
  
• Stephen
  • That's like, one, it's, yeah, it's like her. Um. That's her experience of what autism is.
  
  
• Margot
  • Mmhm.
    
  • Stephen
    • When she speaks about it.. There's something about the shifting meaning of autism, the spectrum idea..
    
    
  • Margot
    • yeah
    
    
  • Stephen
    • It includes people who perceive the world that way. Its somewhat like hazy now or something.
    
    
  • Margot
    • Yeah.
    
    
  • Stephen
    • That's like one of the things that could that you could say indicates autism, but um, some people don't experience that. The hugging thing relates to autism, it's like the weighted blanket. Yeah.. Yeah, comforting through pressure or weight. But maybe not being comfortable with people providing that. Yeah.
    
    
  • Margot
    • That makes a lot of sense, I think.
    
    
  • Stephen
    • There are all these words that like, that are just specific to autism. Like uh echolalia, which is a tendency to like repeat things, like quote things without like, it relating to uh anything.
    
    Margot + Stephen
    • Raighne's like.. (turn to Raighne)
    
    Margot
    • do you feel that's what you do?
    
    Raighne
    • Oh yeah, I'm just like, cool. Uhhh. I'm like.. holy shit that's like 90% of like how I interact with humans.
    
    Stephen
    • And stimming.
    
    Margot
    • hm.
    
    Stephen
    • And visual stimming.
    
    Margot
    • What's visual stimming?
    
    Stephen
    • Visual stimming is like like um, it's a watching activity
    
    Margot
    • mmhm
    
    Stephen
    • like uh, a lot of video— well there are lots of YouTube videos
    
    Margot
    • Oh, OK.
    
    Stephen
    • Thinking of "satisfying to watch" videos or whatever
    
    Margot
    • yeah, but I don't think that's a sign..
    
    Stephen
    • yeah, there's some like— yeah
    
    Margot
    • Or something that's like.. yeah, like, but it's just like satisfying to watch...
    
    Stephen
    • Yeah,
    
    Margot
    • I feel like that's such a-- that's such a thing with a lot of people now though. Because like even on Instagram there’s so many short videos of people-- people who make slime. And they just have a ton of videos of their hand going into a bucket of slime or just like-- slime like being snipped with scissors or cut.
    
    Stephen
    • mmhm
    
    Margot
    • Or two slimes mixed together. Like two different textures of slime being like poured over each other um.. or objects going into slime. Like there's so much of that and I feel like it's like.. like I almost.. like I almost
    
    Stephen
    • [sneezes]
    
    Margot
    • Bless you. I kind of just associate it with um like a really normal thing to do if you're a teen girl.
    
    Stephen
    • mmmmm mhm
    
    Margot
    • Which I think is interesting.
    
    Stephen
    • Yeah. I like this like idea— not technical so much or— but the idea of— the notion of Silicon Valley as this this hub of autism.
    
    Margot
    • mmhm
    
    Stephen
    • Which has like, um, which is like, well, I mean it's real.. that is, a lot of programmers in Silicon Valley will have children that'll be more obviously autistic. It seems like communication technologies tend to be invented by people who don't communicate very well
    
    Margot yeah.
  
  Stephen
  • Alexander Graham Bell — bad communicator.
  
  Margot
  • Yeah, yeah!
  
  Stephen
  • And uh
  
  Margot
  • didn't they like um,
  
  Stephen
  • same with uh.. Mark Zuckerberg
  
  
• Margot
  • yeah
  
  
• Stephen
  • he had to take classes to seem more human (for the senate hearing)
  
  
• Margot + Raighne
  • Yeah, yeah
  
  
• Stephen
  • Like it was such ah — I felt for him, in the video, I guess.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah, yeah
  
  
• Stephen
  • Like I understand.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah,
  
  
• Stephen
  • you could tell he was like kind of— counting out the seconds he should be looking at someone.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • “I’ll look at this guy for 18 seconds, then look at the person next to him. I’ll look at this guy talk about his daughters phone, and how he doesn’t understand what she’s doing on it. Now I'll look over here— now I'll drink water.”
  
  
• Margot + Raighne
  • yeah
  
  
• Stephen
  • People made a video compilation of all the times he drank water..
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah, the water seemed very deliberate.
  
  
• Stephen
  • mmm
  
  
• Margot
  • But then I feel like that is what I would do, if I was in that position
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah
  
  
• Margot
  • Like: "it is appropriate for me now to take a swig of water?"
  
  
• Raighne
  • Right, right. "Has it been long enough?"
  
  
• Raighne
  • “Is it my turn?”
  
  
• Stephen
  • What if I drink too much?
  
  
• Raighne
  • [laughter]
  
  
• Margot
  • “Oh, I’ll risk it. But, what if I run out of water?”
  
  
• Margot + Stephen + Raighne
  • [laughter]
  
  
• Margot
  • “I will still bring it to my lips.”.
  
  
• Raighne
  • It's probably acceptable to drink no water from an empty glass at least two or three times
  
  
• Stephen
  • “I want to lick my lips but then they'll see my tongue.”
    
  • Margot + Raighne [laughter]
  
  
• Raighne
  • “Is it okay for strangers to see your tongue? or is it .. not socially acceptable?”
  
  
• Margot
  • “Maybe it's ok among friends.”
  
  
• Raighne
  • “Yeah, are these my friends?”
  
  
• Margot + Stephen + Raighne [laughing]

Stephen

• “How many hours does it take to become a friend?”

Raighne

• [laughing]

Stephen

• “is it, not that many?”

Margot

• I feel like there's a lot of videos of him doing various other things to sort of appear more human.

Stephen

• Yeah.

Margot

• Like there's that thing where like he — what was it, he like

Stephen

• starts grilling things?

Raighne

• Ah jesus christ.

Stephen

• "I need to grill."

Raighne

• [Laughing]

Stephen

• I think in that he just.. he like tries to make these overly casual remarks.

Margot

• Oh no.

Stephen

• Like something where he's like, "yeah, I'm gonna throw some mean meat on the on the grill."

Margot

• Oh no.

Stephen

• And then it doesn't quite uh land.

Raighne

• I heard that he only eats meat that he kills.

Margot

• Really?

Stephen

• Yeah. I heard that about the meat too.

Raighne Oh I thought you were saying ‘me too.’ Like, trying to say that this was like his '#metoo' moment

Margot + Stephen + Raighne

• [laughter]

Margot

• What the fuck. And he like uses the hashtag. It make no sense. It's like the most alienating and inappropriate thing..!

Stephen

• Um, early in #metoo, um. There was this rainbow in LA a lot of people were posting

Margot

• Uh huh

Stephen

• the rainbow in the neighborhood.

Margot

• Yeah,

Stephen

• I posted the rainbow and uh with the hashtag #metoo..

Margot

• Ohh.

Stephen

• I didn't know.

Margot

• Ohhh Oh no oh no [laughter]

Stephen

• It still worked or whatever. People liked it.

Margot

• That's very Larry David.

Stephen

• Larry what?

Margot

• Larry David.

Raighne

• [laughter] oh fuck like "I also saw it."[laughter] What, you can't say 'me too?' Anymore?" [laughter]

Margot

• Oh no no fuck. so dark ..

Raighne

• [laughing uncontrollably]

Margot

• Ei yi yi

Stephen

• Oh so, uh, the idea that, like, like the internet spreading autistic tendencies.
  
• Margot Oh right.

Stephen

• Like, uhh not main— having trouble maintaining eye contact is like part of

Margot yeah

Stephen

• the diagnosis..

Margot

• It's also a cultural thing too, isn't it?

Stephen

• Mmhm

Margot

• Because I feel like it's very, it seems like it's very Western to expect like eye contact with people out of like, respect.

Stephen

• Mmhm.

Margot

• I don't think it's like that in a lot of Asian countries. And.. like, um, like, once there was this guy, randomly downtown. He seemed like he was a student. Um. I don't know where he was from, but it seemed like he was from an African country. I don't know which one because I didn't talk to him that long. But like, he was trying to ask me for help like for directions.

Stephen

• Mmhm.

Margot

• I was trying to help him. But then like, as he was talking to me, he absolutely refused to make eye contact or like, look at my face at all. And for the longest time I was like, what's wrong with me? Why won't you look at me? Like what's wrong with me!? I mean, I didn't say that.. I kept trying to make eye contact..

Stephen

• yeah yeah

Margot

• with him because I was like?

Raighne

• Like, "Hey,"

Margot

• I was like, what's wrong with me?

Raighne

• yeahh

Margot

• Is it that bad? And then I realized, like, oh, it's probably just like, because, wherever he's from it's considered really confrontational or something to make eye contact. Because there's, there's a lot of places like that where you're just like, you know-- he was actually probably being respectful by avoiding my eyes or something.

Stephen

• Yeah. Um.

Margot

• But um within that—

Stephen

• Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, like, they don't like usually look at like brain scans when they diagnose autism, its observation, reportage.. Like, what is illness if it's fine? What happens if like, the culture changes?

Margot

• Yeah. They don't do—... They don't do brain scans? Like,

Stephen

• usually not.

Margot

• Huh. That's interesting.

Stephen

• It's just like reportage and observation.

Raighne

• Yeah, maybe in the future if you're not autistic.. something's wrong.

Stephen

• Autistic people look at images differently — where they look at the uh

Margot

• ya

Stephen

• They'll tend to look at whatever's more centered in a photograph over any faces in a photograph.

Margot

• yeah,

Stephen

• less socially hierarchical perceptual mode.

Raighne

• Yeah.

Margot

• Mm.

Stephen

• Which is interesting.

Margot

• Yeah. It is really interesting

Stephen

• Less human centered.

Raighne

• Mmhmm.

Stephen

• Some precedent there, something appealing, I don't know..

Margot

• It’s like you were saying earlier, like a lot of people who wind up like developing this technology, like tend to like be on the spectrum. . .
  Stephen
  • yeah,
  
  
• Margot
  • Maybe., I don't know, maybe it's too generalized
  
  
• Stephen
  • It makes it easier to communicate to have like this thing, this in-between— uh, thing.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah.
  
  Stephen
  • I don't know. Thinking about DeviantArt? I don't know, it seems.
  Margot
  • Oh ya. Deviantart's great. they changed it now though.
  Stephen
  • Is it, oh. In what way? Is still kind of the same people like the same—
  Margot
  • I think, well — I mean [laughing]
  Stephen
  • like is it still, uh
  Margot
  • Is it still like, uh, freakier [laughter]
  Stephen
  • Yeah. I guess like, yeah, [...]
  Margot
  • Yeah.
  Stephen
  • Fandom..
  Margot
  • Yeah.
  Stephen
  • Furry..
  Margot
  • I really respect furries, I wish people didn't shit on them so much. I feel like
  Stephen
  • mm
  Margot
  • I've been actually spending a lot more time on Reddit lately. And then I feel like I actually get kind of sad like, deeply sad when that-- like furries are sort of the people that are like universally
  Stephen
  • using 'furry' like an insult.
  Margot
  • Or yeah, or it's like it's acceptable for you to like post a picture of like someone holding a gun to like a furry's..
  Raighne
  • oh jesus
  Margot
  • Oh I mean it's like a staged photo.
  Raighne
  • yeah
  Margot
  • But it's like, the text will be like "the only.. the only kind of murder that's fine is--"
  Raighne
  • oh my god.
  Margot
  • Crazy right? I mean furries are great. I feel like that's such a cool concept that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with beastiality or whatever freaks people out um, but Deviantart is still pretty freaky. They changed the background color finally.
  
  
• Stephen
  • it's not grey anymore?
  
  Margot
  • No it's black. And then there's like a weird um, currency system. You could always sort of give people points. I don't remember what the points did but it was like some sort of thing that I think you had to pay for. And now you can buy DeviantArt currency and then send it to people to specifically commission them to do stuff for you. And then they're like, “ oh, well
  
  
• Stephen
  • hmm
  
  
• Margot
  • I shall accept like 50 Deviantart coins
  
  
• Raighne
  • Oh my god
  
  
• Margot
  • To draw your tattoo.
  
  
• Stephen
  • mmhm mmhm mmhmm
  
  
• Margot
  • Um, and then I think the person just gets money but it's like you can't just send money directly. You have to buy this other money to give them.
  
  
• Raighne
  • wow
  
  
• Stephen
  • you could like potentially get it some other way than like actually buying it? Like—
  
  
• Margot
  • Hmmm. I mean I think people can just give it to you but someone along the line like the beginning of it has to be like-- somebody actually gave real money to get it and like it's just money that's being passed along. so then like couldn't you just like
  
  
• Margot
  • [laughing] maybe it makes sense, I don't know.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Maybe it's also tied to like teens. Not everybody has like a
  
  
• Margot
  • oh, like a debit card.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah, yeah.
  
  
• Margot
  • I would almost say that I think that like there's not even that many young people on Deviantart.
  
  
• Raighne
  • It's all older people?
  
  
• Stephen
  • Do you think it's people who grew up with it and stuck to it?
  
  
• Margot
  • I don't even know if I think it's that. I mean I'm sure like some people are like that but I feel like maybe I'm just thinking of like all the freaky stuff that would be characterized as mature content. And I just feel like I associate that so much with Deviantart that I almost feel like teens would just use Instagram or something normal.
  
  
• Stephen
  • mm
  
  
• Margot
  • And Deviantart doesn't even have a good mobile app. I mean they do, but..
  
  
• Raighne
  • Does Deviantart even have one?
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah, they do. I used to have it.
  
  
• Margot
  • I was talking to someone because I was just like kind of riffing off of these things that I saw on Deviantart, which were like these weird specific fetishes like conjoinment fetishes and stuff like that.

  
  
• Stephen
  • Conjoinment?
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah, like a lot of it is just like conjoined twins. But then some of it is like impossible. They make like three or four people connected together, or a girl with seven heads and six boobs, or something, and 8 legs. But uh, I drew a picture kind of based on that. And then this person kept talking to me and they wanted me to draw more of that character and they kept asking these really specific questions about the character which was cool, but then I don’t know, I almost feel like I’m afraid to use that account again cuz that was like two years ago and I never drew the thing I said I was going to draw for them; not that there was any money involved.
  
  
• Raighne
  • But like uh they give you this uh bit.. coin

  
  
• Margot
  • They didn’t give me anything. “Bitch coin.” “Did they give you a bitch coin?”

  
  
• Stephen
  • I like these things — ‘bases’? On deviant art.

  
  
• Margot
  • Bases?

  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah, do you know those? They’re like… they like trace an anime character..
  
  
• Margot
  • Like a doll, kinda?
  
  
• Stephen
  • They trace an anime character and remove the hair and the clothing..
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah! Like pixels.. would you do it with pixels or?
  
  
• Stephen
  • There are some pixelated ones but just as many are clean line illustration. They just appear like these weird overgrown babies if you don’t touch them.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah. Cuz they’re just like completely hairless
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah and like de-sexed as well.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Like Toad without his hat.
  
  
• Margot
  • You like that? Is that what you’re into? (Toward Raighne)
  
  
• Raighne
  • Hey! you don’t tell anyone. I will -not- be blackmailed about this.
  
  
• Margot
  • I actually would like to make things like that I think. There’s also, I feel like its not the same but its related, I’ve seen a lot of adoptables where…
  
  
• Stephen
  • is that the idea that someone makes a character that someone else can have?
  
  
• Margot
  • I think so but its almost like— yeah I think that’s it. Where its like “I make fairies and if you would like to adopt this specific fairy you will pay me $30 or something”
  
  
• Stephen
  • It’d be cool to trace this specific fairy like getting like traded from hand to hand, or uh user to user
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah, yeah! But I guess I don’t — still don’t totally understand what you do. Because I think you get a download for some like high res files of it. And I think it almost is like the base idea where there are different outfits that you can layer onto the person. I don’t know, something like that. But then I saw this other person who created this world where there are these little aliens that descended to earth— they were these anime chibi things that were always asleep and they had puffballs on their heads and they lived inside of these little compacts and that was how they got their nutrition and how they slept.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Compact mirrors?
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah its was really cute. But the whole idea was you could adopt one. But I don’t know how it worked..
  
  
• Stephen
  • You could have ownership..
  
  
• LMargot
  • Like how.. I don’t know if you can display it in your profile somehow. I don’t know if it was some sort of pixel art, or if it came with accessories somehow. People seemed really into those and they would pay this person to do that. But I don’t even understand what you’re doing, how people interact with your thing. It’s cool, I don’t know.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Maybe you should interview them.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah maybe. I feel like they’d go “go away”
  
  
• Stephen
  • Like…
  
  
• Margot
  • Do you ever think like, right now we’re talking about these people on Deviantart .. who do these things that like I think are pretty strange or niche.
  
  
• LStephen
  • Like — you’re thinking like about what they think of what you make.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah where its like, they would probably not even, not at all even like it. And its like, we’re having this conversation and I’ve thought about these people and its interesting. Like yeah— that person will probably never think about me. Its just interesting.


• Raighne
  • yeah
  
  
• Margot
  • Because they don’t have the same..
  
  
• Raighne:
  • Cultural references?
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah they don’t fucking care about the ignatz. Which I don’t. But its not something that they have to roll their eyes at.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Do you have the sense that… like, they fetishize so directly — a subject — and communally sort of riff, and then there’s this other attitude where the fetish is at a certain level of distance, sort of out of sight, art… uh can’t articulate..
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah its kind of..
  
  
• Stephen
  • Its difficult to not say it with a kind of patronizing thing.. which is unnecessary.
  
  
• Margot
  • Maybe its even as simple as its good to remember that there’s a lot of people that don’t care or don’t know about the things that maybe we worry about. Which I don’t mean they don’t care in like a good way, but if I went to a comics show that was annoying or something I might be really neurotic and concerned about everyone because maybe this person might know who I am and might have this weird idea about me based on what they’ve seen online or what they think my work is, right? Um, and then there are just like all these names that everyone knows. But then, there are people out there.. like if I were to meet the person who does the compact adoptables or whatever, they would probably just see me as person, with no baggage attached to it because we’re not of the same..
  
  
• Stephen
  • Tribe
  
  
• Margot
  • Which is kind of refreshing. Or at least not like anxiety-inducing or destructive.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Seeing each other as just both members of this group that you don’t relate to but aren’t critical of within .
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Like “you’re an art cartoonist, like all the other art cartoonists here.”
  
  
• Margot
  • Right, you just do this thing that…like you do the furry thing.
  
  
• Stephen
  • You do the furry thing
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah yeah!
  
  
• Margot
  • But I don’t know that you’ve actually had this falling out with this really big furry. Or you’ve been accused of copying this furry’s design then they tried to call you out. [inaudible]
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah, you don’t know enough to judge them.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah cuz I can be like ‘I don’t know who any of those people are’.
  
  
• Raighne
  • I don’t give a shit.
  
  
• Margot
  • Or, I only give a shit if it effects you.
  
  
• Stephen
  • It’d be interesting… just like a contemporary movie, where a character happens to be a furry. I don’t think I’ve seen that, have you? Like, maybe he dresses one time, or makes drawings..
  Like, even a secondary character..
  
• Margot
  • Yeah I really wish people would stop ganging up on furries as like this easy ..
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah, I mean most things that people lob around online are frustrating. Youtube comments or Reddit comments. Like, writing as if none of them are individuals. They take an easy stance.
  
  
• Margot
  • I’ve been getting really sick of instagram because I don’t like the way I interact with it. It feels too mindless and I feel like I never see that much of the people i actually care about, or I don’t get to see them in a way that feels good. Um, and then I was like spending more time on Reddit and was like “this is way better”, because it feels more anonymous and you just have to type to people like I just have to type to people to interact with them, which is cool because when you upload something, no one knows who you are. But then I started realizing so many people will just go along with, whatever they’re supposed to go along with. I used to follow this subreddit for a bit that was supposed to be people on instagram who would like edit themselves in a way that was really obnoxious and really noticeable. Like people who’d make their boobs really huge in a way that was like— they went so far with it that the background was like warped because of it.
  
  
• Stephen In like, a less self aware way, you think?

Margot

• Yeah, yeah, it’s not like its your project and.. it’s not your artistic project, its not like you’re doing it ironically. Um and I noticed that people would start… like once someone posted this image of this Brazilian woman in a supermarket with her little girl. And I think this woman was just really toned and I think just had naturally really big boobs and also dressed in a way which was also pretty revealing. But, like to me it didn’t look like anything was edited at all. And she also had like— you know the shopping baskets that like part of it is curved in so you can hold it at your side without it like—

Stephen

• yeah.

Margot

• She had one of those and the person who posted it was like, like the title was like “haha yeah gotta love those shopping baskets that just curve like that”

Raighne

• wow

Margot Ferrick

• And then everyone just like— everyone except maybe 2 or 3 people— were like “I can’t believe the image she’s creating! Why do people even want to look like this? What example is she setting for her little girl”

Stephen

• “The children!”

Margot

• People just weren’t thinking, at all. They just wanted to fit in. Which is like understandable.

Stephen

• Yeah, That’s how I feel whenever I read a message board or something. Anytime there’s an alternate voice… feels like you can predict what’s going to happen

Margot

• Which sucks. It makes me really distrust…

Stephen

• People, in the world?

Margot

• Yeah, its not even that I think people are being malicious on Reddit in general. But I think a lot of people will tell anecdotes that don’t seem real or they’ll offer.. try to relate in a way.. that leaves you like “is this for real? or are you just trying really really hard to relate this isn’t genuine at all”.

Stephen

• There’s not many people I’m talking to on it, the internet. Its become kind of a small space.

Stephen

• Quora replies feel like that

Margot

• Who?

Stephen

• Quora? Do you know Quora?

Margot

• No,

Stephen

• it's like a website where someone will ask a question and there's people—

Margot

• Oh Quora!

Margot + Stephen

• Yeah.

Margot

• I've never heard it said out loud.

Stephen

• Oh, okay,

Margot

• so that's why,

Stephen

• yeah,

Margot

• I didn't..

Stephen

• makes sense. Uh.

Margot

• Quora's weird.

Stephen

• Yeah, it is weird. It's like, uh — even the uh, like, whoever maybe like wins — [the talked about thing] — like they'll tell an anecdote, and it'll be an anecdote, and it's supposed to have a moral at the end—

Margot

• Mmhm. Yeah.

Stephen

• is bizarre. And usually I can't quite follow. Like, I usually don't agree with the conclusion that they've reached.

Margot

• Yeah.

Stephen

• Yea, Quora is like weird. I get emails from them. I should unsubscribe because I only just like click on these its like, ..they will like send you like questions that they've answered. I think Quora tries to present itself as the smart area of the internet or something.

Margot

• Yeah. [laughing]
  
• Stephen
  • While in reality, a lot of it is just salacious.. it's like a confession
  
  
• Margot
  • Ya.
  
  
• Stephen
  • I get emails from them . whenever there's a superhero movie out. There'll be a lot of people trying to figure out the logistics of it. And that's kind of annoying. But sometimes I'll click it.
  
  
• Margot
  • Like the um—
  
  
• Stephen
  • Like, how did in, like in the Avenger movie — how come when he did the snap [...] How did this guy did not die?
  
  
• Margot
  • Oh god.
  
  
• Stephen
  • And they go on to explain either through the movie or through their comics knowledge — source material - it'll be really long
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah, that sounds.. great.
  
  
• Stephen
  • [laughing]
  
  
• Margot
  • I don't know. I guess if I liked those movies I'd probably be doing that.
  
  
• Raighne
  • Yeah, pleasure
  
  
• Stephen
  • Tumblr was something. I'm talking to more Tumblr people now that tumblr almost died or whatever.
  
  
• Margot
  • Oh really?
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah, because I realize like I had like, the mutual thing was, almost just enough. We could just regard each other. Or whatever. But some people have disappeared.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • And I didn't have any real contact with them — or email.
  
  
• Margot
  • Ya
    I kinda find it hard to even check on Tumblr again. Um, I kinda wonder— I was trying to start a WordPress again, or I mean, blogger? or
  
  
• Margot
  • Blogspot
  
  
• Margot
  • And that actually felt really good. But I had no friends.
  
  
• Stephen
  • yeah, like how do you — how do people connect on that now?
  
  
• Margot
  • Um, I think people leave comments
  
  
• Stephen
  • Is your blogspot writing? Long-form? Or images?
  
  
• Margot
  • I guess it was like, I only made like two posts on it. And it was just like whatever I wanted to post. poetic reflections, and pictures I had found that I liked. Kind of like a tumblr. I don't know, but then I feel like when I think back on a lot of the blogs that I really enjoy, the ones that I'll go back to and might want to read through again. A lot of them tend be like, like I dont know if there was like ah, like a generational thing — But there were a lot of people on blogspot who had really really good blogs. A lot of them are dead now — the people aren't dead I mean, but the blogs are dead.
  
  
• Stephen
  • LiveJournal had a bigger impact on me.
  
  
• Margot
  • livejournal
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah. Which is like, somehow more embarrassing than blogger
  
  
• Margot
  • I can't even remember using it anymore. Well. Like I can remember using it, but I can't remember the feeling of it you know? If that makes sense?
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah,
  
  
• Margot
  • maybe I like tried to like delete it from my brain or something — I feel like I didn't have that good of a time on Livejournal.
  
  
• Stephen
  • I think I did, but it was just incidental. Because I like had some concentrated project maybe for the first time with drawing. And it happened to be on that platform. And then like, Yeah, I remember following a couple cartoonists over to tumblr
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah. I remember that too I remember it felt like a real exodus
  
  
• Stephen
  • it seemed better.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah, tumblr seemed awesome.
  
  
• Stephen
  • I feel like it did something to my brain. Like, over the years.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah? Like what? like, because of..
  
  
• Stephen
  • this scroll of like, being absorbed, by hundreds of images.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah,
  
  
• Stephen
  • basically every day.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah, I feel like you feel like that was a positive thing or a negative thing?
  
  
• Stephen
  • It accelerated something.. I don't think its negative
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah,
  
  
• Stephen
  • [...] but I think it uh I think it sped something up that could be interesting. Uh. I like the way that there are two sides — there's a stream where everything is collaged together and then there's the highly personalized page It encourages this reading where.. You're following this unconventional narrative , fragmented choices over time—
  
  
• Margot
  • yeah
  
  
• Stephen
  • it isn't just images, it's uh choices that they've made
  
  
• Margot
  • mmhm
  
  
• Stephen
  • I remember being interested in a tumblr that just posts like pictures of bubble wrap most of the time and then the occasional album art and somehow this was compelling, this pattern and breaking it.. when the Album art would get posted it felt like such an upset. Like: 'oh, daring.'
  
  
• Margot
  • [laugh] Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah, I think it's just.. a lot of information. And like there's a level of annonymity. Or it feels like a remnant of alterity. Do you know what I mean?
  
  
• Margot
  • of what?
  
  
• Stephen
  • Like alterity, like uh
  
  
• Margot
  • Oh like having um—
  
  
• Stephen
  • it isn't as total as the early internet where people are would indulge in like, total fantasy.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • But is isn't like Instagram. I mean, in terms of the profile being identified with your person.
  
  
• Margot
  • ya
  
  
• Stephen
  • Instagram's kind of in between Tumblr and Facebook.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah
  
  
• Stephen
  • Facebook is absolute identification, you know.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah. Facebook is awful.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah, it's awful.
  
  
• Margot
  • I kinda don't understand how people still use it . unless you, like, have like family members you need to write.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Yeah. Family memebers that you need to talk to, but like, not all the time.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah. But like, you need to be aware of them. Send them attention in a way that's kind of lower key. I don't think scrolling on Tumblr was necessarily that bad for me. But I felt like it was changing my brain in a way that I didn't necessarily like. Um. And I feel like at this point.. like basically since I like moved I feel like my brain has changed in ways where there's a lot more disorder or — like .. I just can't focus on things —— I find it really hard for me to read books
  
  
• Stephen
  • mm
  
  
• Margot
  • maybe it's not true, but I sort of blame constantly scrolling through images for part of that. When I'm on Instagram sometimes, I actually, really do like getting all this information and content that I want. I have like a secret Instagram account that I just use to follow embarrassing accounts. Food accounts and pet accounts that I want for inspiration.. And I really like the process of like scrolling through that one because, a lot of it is like-- I'll scroll through then I'll click through something and from there, I'll find more things and it feels more active I actually really hate scrolling through my main account. Because I feel like, it's just like..
  
  
• Stephen
  • some kind of responsibility?
  
  
  • Margot
    • yeah, or it's like uh — it's less easy to like look for stuff. Because it's already — I'm already following over 2000 people. Um. It's too much. It's like, it gets hard when it's like all people that you know.
    
    
  • Stephen
    • I think I like stories
    
    
  • Margot
    • Stories are good.
    
    
  • Stephen
    • it feels like it's still figuring out like what they are
    
    
  • Margot
    • mhm
    
    
  • Stephen
    • Maybe vertical cinema is the future.
    
    
  • Margot
    • Yeah, that'd be weird right ?
    
    
  • Stephen
    • Yeah, but it feels like, horizontal orientation— Trying to think like, I guess it makes sense that that's what they did, for a movie theatre
    the wall. The curtain. But I don't know, I've noticed now in certain stores, they have vertical screens. Currently displaying advertisements.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Seems inevitable. Vertical movies. Seems like a whole other set of choices you can make.
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah. That is really interesting to think about. I used to really — I really like stories too. It feels like people are more willing to take risks because it goes away
  
  
• Stephen
  • like a sand castle
  
  
• Margot
  • Yeah, yeah.
  
  
• Stephen
  • It's also like, I think the Snapchat people related it — it came from them — related to it to like a facial expression. It's there then goes away
  
  
• Margot
  • Mm
  
  
• Margot
  • I also feel like a lot of times, it's like, A less pristine quality of image. Especially if you're filming it on your phone — it's like, not that good.
  
  
• Stephen
  • Mm mm. My phone can record the screen. And I like that. like, look what I'm doing with my phone, look what I'm watching—
  
  
• Margot
  • That's pretty cool too, I wonder if I should do that—
  
  
• Stephen
  • I recommend it.
    
  • Margot
    • Do you have an app that does it?
      
    • Stephen
      • No, I have an iPhone
      
      
    • Margot
      • Oh ok.
      
      
    • Stephen
      • And it's like a feature that I don't see people using — like they haven't figured it out or something. The button's a little inconspicuous
      
      
    • Margot
      • I don't see people on Instagram use it so much, but I see people on YouTube use it. Where they'll be facing you and they'll be like, 'Hey guys, y'all wanna swipe on Tinder with me?'
      
      
    • Stephen
      • Oh wow
      
      
    • Margot
      • And then they'll have like a little rectangle of what's on your screen next to them here and they'll be like 'Here we go!'
        
      • Stephen
        • Wow that's really daring of them in a way. Like it can make you seem really bad.
        
        
      • Margot
        • Yeah,
        
        
      • Stephen
        • I imagined that as a performance.. like if you were in person and doing it with a projector and everyone's just watching you accept or reject. With that stamp graphic that says 'nope'
        
        
      • Margot
        • 'okay now I see how judgemental your are'
        
        
      • Margot
        • Tinder's pretty awful I think. Because of that immediate.. I don't know. It's like scrolling too.
        
        
      • Stephen
        • yeah
        
        
      • Margot
        • um.
        
        
      • Stephen
        • it's like you're um it's like the agreement between the users there Is to be judged.. and judge. like to make these judgments on each other. like where I think on facebook The agreement that you make with each other — is like to stalk each other
        
        
      • Margot
        • yes
        
        
      • Stephen
        • like you're accepting their stalking so you can do it too I guess.
        
        
      • Margot
        • Yeah.
        
        
      • Stephen
        • Yeah. Neither of those make me feel very good
        
        
      • Margot
        • Yeah. Especially Facebook. I can't look at Facebook anymore. I don't use it.
        
        
      • Stephen
        • I might as well deactivate mine before my birthday.
        
        
      • Margot
        • Yeah.
        
        
      • Stephen
        • Because I'm not active on it and people only interact with it on that day.
        
        
      • Margot
        • yeah yeah, I also think the last time I deactivated it, I just like logged out for a long time and forgot about it and then when my birthday came up I was like, I need to get rid of it now.
        
        
      • Stephen
        • Yeah.
        
        
      • Margot
        • Because like— I feel like if you're not there to respond because you don't use it anymore... I mean maybe people don't actually care.. but it feels like you're making some sort of social faux pas or something.
        
        
      • Stephen
        • Yeah. Uh. Someone invited me to their show on Facebook. I was only aware of it after the fact— and yeah, they were insulted.
        
        
      • Margot
        • ohh. that sucks
        
        
      • Stephen
        • Yeah.
        
        
      • Margot
        • That's why you gotta just text people [laughing]
        Have like actual words to them. Like invite them with your words one-one-one. Like look at their face and invite them.
        
      • Margot
        • Is Raighne asleep?
      • Stephen
        • Yeah maybe we should..
      • Margot
        • ohhh
      • Raighne
        • [hisses like a cat]
      • Stephen
        • wow,
        • Raighne's good at being a cat
        
        

• Compact Substack
• Margot Ferrick
• Stephen Z Hayes
• Raighne